Talk:Catalonia

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Catalonia[edit]

Catalonia (Catalan: Catalunya, Occitan: Catalonha, Spanish:Cataluña) is a European country located in the western Mediterranean. Its legal status is the subject of a dispute between the Parliament of Catalonia, which on October 27, 2017 proclaimed the Catalan Republic, and the Kingdom of Spain, which considers it an autonomous community. It is located on the north-east coast of the Iberian Peninsula and borders the north with Andorra and France, to the west with Aragon, to the south with the Valencian Country and to the east with the Mediterranean Sea. Catalonia is the most extensive part of the historical and cultural territory of the Principality of Catalonia and the whole set of Catalan lands or the Catalan Countries. With an estimated 7,508,106 inhabitants in 2015, it groups 51.55% of the total population of the Catalan Countries. Montserrat-Alba (talkcontribs) 23:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Autosigned by SineBot--[]

This is the article that should be in the text introduction. NEUTRAL


Personally, as someone writing from Australia so neither Catalan nor Spanish, I think that this is so much better than the Spanish nationalist intro the article currently has.
I say change it! 49.183.27.126 (talk) 19:22, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[]

Map[edit]

I've removed the alternative map from the infobox. There's zero need to treat Catalonia as if it were something special (it's not), let's stay neutral instead of appealing to separatists. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 02:10, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[]

@Jacobí: You can respond here instead of edit warring yourself. The way I see it, WP let the true edit warriors bully itself into treating Catalonia in a special manner in 2016. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 12:17, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[]

MR KEBAB, the "war map" of 2016 was something closed. The two maps were accepted and nobody removed them, except during the confusing period of October-December 2017. I didn't see why exactly you or the Spanish nationalist editors considered this map as "nationalist", but well. Anyway, it seems that virtually nobody was annoyed for the map for a long time, so we'll try to avoid another Byzantine debate about this issue. Regards, --Jacobí (talk) 12:24, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[]
@Jacobí: That's what I'm talking about. The fact that they were accepted is evidence that it was done just to appeal to nationalists who wanted things to go their way or else. It's beyond absurd that we have two maps in the infobox and there's no need to show Catalonia as if it were a country. It's not - check Spanish law. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 12:36, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[]
I honestly don't think it makes much of a difference either way, but I have basically no opinion on Spanish national/regional politics and no particular desire to get one any time soon. There is an argument to be had for consistency's sake. Andalusia, Community of Madrid, Galicia (Spain), and Balearic Islands all feature only the peninsular level, and not continent level maps. This seems in line with other regions, e.g., Bavaria, Lombardy, Normandy. While in comparison, Andorra, Luxembourg, and Wales all feature continent level maps only. GMGtalk 12:47, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[]
@Kbb2: I'm abolutely agree about the Wikipedia's neutral point of view. And that's why I can't see the European map as a "nationalist" or, at least, more than the Spanish one. It's like if we consider the Scottish, Welsh, English or Flemish maps (all of them quasi-identical to the controversial Catalan) as nationalists, simply because it shows the location of this sub-national entities in the European context. I was agree with the map for the reason that it add useful information about the Catalan geopolitical context, if this is some kind of privilege, well, I'm not opposed to the idea to make the same for other autonomous communites. Best regards. --Jacobí (talk) 12:53, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[]
@GreenMeansGo: Thats a point, Wales. If the criteria of Wikipedia is red -> sub-national, green -> independent, there's no reason to put Wales (or Scotland) as a green territory in Europe. So, what's exactly the criteria? It seeems a little confusing. If the information is neutral and useful, there's no reason to be strict in a flexible issue. --Jacobí (talk) 12:59, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[]
(edit conflict) Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, but as I believe Wales is technically a nation in a union of nations, and not a sub-national entity which is itself a constituent part of a nation. (I suppose at least temporarily, a nation, in a union of nations, in a union of nations.) Anyway, it doesn't look like we're totally consistent across articles. I notice Iraqi Kurdistan includes both regional and national maps. Somaliland includes only regional and no national map at all. But that may be comparing apples and oranges, where as I understand it, an antonymous region in the context of Spain is a particular, rather than a general political science term. GMGtalk
Actually, Wales and Scotland are nations, and the UK is the State. It's the same with Catalonia, The Basque Country and Galicia and Spain. 49.183.27.126 (talk) 19:09, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[]

13:11, 17 July 2018 (UTC) I'm fine with either map alone (although I'd recommend we choose the first one). The way it's presented now is a bit like a geography lesson. Perhaps we need to write WP:NOTAGEOGRAPHYLESSON, like WP:NOTADICTIONARY? :P Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:03, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[]

Introduction should be totally rewritten[edit]

The introduction is completely hispanocentric and therefore biased: it completely ignores North Catalonia by just considering it an spanish autonomus community instead of an spanish autonomus community AND a french region (par pf the Pyrénées-Orientales deparmnet.

If we want to refer solely to Spanish Catalonia we should create an "Spanish Catalonia" article or subdivision, otherwise it should be threated like any other region split between several States (ex. Kurdistan or Tyrol). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:C50E:3028:AF00:1932:3CB2:5A09:45EF (talk) 10:55, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[]

It would be because this article focuses on the Spanish autonomous community, and "Catalonia" is how it is commonly referred in sources and how it is widely known, as per WP:COMMONNAME. You're probably mistaking the topic of this article with that of Catalan Countries, which does include Northern Catalonia (and other lands). Impru20talk 12:37, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[]
So its wrong? As the previous user said, if you want an Spanish Catalonia focused article we can allways create "Spanish Catalonia" page.Raicopk —Preceding undated comment added 09:25, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[]
Catalonia is the name by which one commonly refers to the Spanish autonomous community, not necessarily including the so-called "Northern Catalonia", also known as the French region of Roussillon.--Dk1919 (talk) 14:55, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[]

DK

Look at the pannels in the region itself and you will see Northern Catalonia written in them.

--Breizhcatalonia1993 (talk) 19:42, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[]

Elided years[edit]

On 27 October 2017, the Catalan Parliament declared independence from Spain following a disputed referendum. The Spanish Senate voted in favour of enforcing direct rule by removing the entire Catalan government and calling a snap regional election for 21 December [elided]. On 2 November [elided], the Spanish Supreme Court imprisoned 7 former ministers of the Catalan government on charges of rebellion and misuse of public funds, while several others, including the President Carles Puigdemont, fled to European countries.

I don't do a lot of sequential reading on Wikipedia, and tend to land in the middle of paragraphs using "search" quite a lot.

These elided years are jarring for my primary use case, and I really don't see much marginal economy to justify forcing the entire paragraph to be read as a block. — MaxEnt 00:16, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[]

Formation in the infobox[edit]

Before starting, let's make things clear and let's be neutral. Catalonia is a region, it's not a country, as we all know. Unlike Scotland, for example. Which is a country inside a sovereign monarchy.

So why is the "formation" information inside the infobox? It leads to the page History of Catalonia, so this "formation" text in the infobox is completely senseless since this is already mentioned as well in the paragraph History. Catalonia is a region, it's not a country. Leaving political or ideological issues apart, this is the reality and how it is. So it should be standarized as all of the other Autonomous communities of Spain. Just the Statute of Autonomy has to be mentioned there, and the "formation of historical events" have to be mentioned in the History paragraph and the separate page History of Catalonia, where they're already mentioned. Why is such an information in the infobox? It makes no sense at all. This information is good for sovereign countries, or countries at all. But not regions.

It makes sense for the page Spain, the page France or the page Italy. But it doesn't for the page Navarre, Corsica or Sardinia so they haven't got those "formation" things in the paragraph, even considering all of those 3 territories are historical entities as well, but if you see their pages, they're standarized as the other Spanish, French or Italian regions. Why is Catalonia separated from the rest of Spain in the Wiki infobox? Please give elaborated, comprehensive reasons or eitherwise I will delete it by 1 May, 2019. It makes no sense. And there is no reason or source to back this up. Officially and really, it's a region, not even a country within a sovereign entity like Scotland. Even to make it better, all of this information inside the "formation" part of the infobox is already mentioned in the History paragraph, Catalonia is a region so it shouldn't be mentioned in the infobox what happened with the formation as an historical entity, for that there is a separate page already, called History of Catalonia. --TechnicianGB (talk) 20:28, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[]

You need to stop being so offended the contents of the infobox. Having a formation date does not mean that Catalonia is a sovereign state. The article uses Template:Infobox settlement which has a section called "Established" which allows various milestones in the settlement's history to be provided. This info is given in all types of settlements - cities, regions, countries etc. All settlements, including Catalonia, are formed i.e. they have not existed forever. So there is no issue in saying Catalonia is formed. If other Spanish regions don't have this information you should try and add these to those regions rather than deleting content from Catalonia simply because of your personal political views. This isn't a race to the bottom - we are trying to create encyclopedic content.--Obi2canibe (talk) 16:52, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[]

I am not offended, I am just pointing the reality from a neutral point of view. Are you sure it's my political view and not yours? The fact is that Catalonia is here: autonomous communities of Spain and not here: sovereign country. So where is exactly my personal political view shown up there? Anyways, what you said is not a valid reason, as required. I repeat, since it's already mentioned in the History paragraph and the separate page of History of Catalonia as any other territory in the world. Putting the historical entity names inside the infobox data is completely senseless for a region, and Catalonia is a region, or is a sovereign state? Like it or not, as far as neutrality goes and as reality shows up, Catalonia is a Spanish region, styled as an autonomous community. I guess I don't need to prove it.

So then, why it has a "formation" infobox as countries, and not the normal one like every other region from every other country? I've seen some of your edits before and you carefully try to separate Catalonian articles from Spanish ones... I entirely recommend you to check Wikipedia:Neutral point of view first, better than accusing me of using my "own political views" while I just point out that Catalonia is a region, not a country. Am I wrong or something? Thanks. --TechnicianGB (talk) 22:03, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[]

The infobox clearly states at the top that Catalonia is a "Autonomous community". Why can't you see this? Because of your own political views, your dislike of Catalonia and your desire to make this article as crap as other Spanish autonomous communities.--Obi2canibe (talk) 16:22, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[]

Nationalities in the Spanish Constitution[edit]

In the section "4.1 Statute of Autonomy", it says "In the Spanish Constitution of 1978 Catalonia, along with the Basque Country and Galicia, was defined as a "nationality". Despite that Constitution speaks about historical nationalities, unfortunately, it doesn't specify which ones are these. Therefore, this sentence is not correct.193.240.195.178 (talk) 14:42, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[]

North Catalonia[edit]

I think the intro should also mention, even if in a second role, that Catalonia is also a cultural figure which spreads through both Spain (the CCCAA) and France (North Catalonia). Otherwise is like turning Kurdistan page into a page for the Irak-administred autonomous region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raicopk (talkcontribs) 12:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[]

That is the Catalan Countries, which has an article. According to the article, the support for politically unifying that region is weak. Catalonia to the Catalan Countries is as France to the Francosphere. Unknown Temptation (talk) 10:35, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[]

explanations[edit]

I am waiting on the explanation of why Catalonia is not a country and Wales is so. And why we are nationalists and Welsh are not. And be kind and reply instead of being so tolerant and democratic (irony) deleting every section with which you do not agree. --Breizhcatalonia1993 (talk) 11:22, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[]

Because while the United Kingdom consists of four constituent countries: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, Spain is "state of autonomies" divided in Autonomous communities of which Catalonia is one of them.

The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible country of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed, and the solidarity amongst them all

— Second Article of the Spanish Constitution of 1978

[1]

--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 11:39, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[]

References

  1. ^ "The Spanish Constitution" (PDF). Boletín Oficial del Estado. 27 December 1978.

Is the article really too long?[edit]

I'm not sure why the article is prefaced with {{verylong}}. It's certainly not a short article, but I can't find never-ending paragraphs or other features which would warrant the tag. Additionally, it's an extremely well-structured article which is very easy to navigate.

So I'm in favour of removing the verylong tag because I can't see what needs to be fixed; any thoughts? 194.80.232.68 (talk) 12:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[]

 Comment: While fixation into size in terms of kilobytes is not my cup of tea, the article features unnecessarily detailed sections up for trimming (particularly given that "main articles" exist and are linked here) also happening to be unsourced, including languages, Festivals and public holidays (wholly unsourced), Music and dance (wholly unsourced); media and cinema (wholly unsourced), prone to fall into tedious name dropping. The length of the "Statute of Autonomy" section (which also has its standalone article), possibly "Politics"'s too and the presence of the table in "Roads" (a bit of cruft) are also dubious, imo. A suggestion for trimming is perfectly reasonable, the way I see it, regardless of the additional lack of verifiability. I am also sure a more concise lead section could be worked.--Asqueladd (talk) 15:39, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[]
Very good points, thanks for that :) 194.80.232.68 (talk) 21:36, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[]